I have found that we cannot argue someone away from their religion any more than someone can argue me away from Christianity. Also, one cannot argue for the validity of the Bible using internal proofs (i.e. Bible verses). Nor can other religions argue for the validity of their holy books using internal proofs. That would be like me writing a fictitious story but prefacing it with the statement, “Everything I have written in this book is true.” That statement alone doesn’t make it true.
So, how do we answer skeptics and those who don’t believe in the Bible and Jesus? We do so by using external sources and proper argumentation.
Recently, a man posed the following to me:
“what makes you think any of it [the Bible] is true? The similarities between Jesus and other mythological beings (ie Horus) is undeniable.”
Let’s look at that argument:
Statement: Jesus is similar to mythological beings P is similar to Q
Correct Presumption: mythological beings are not real Q is not real
Conclusion: “What make you think it’s true?” Therefore P is not real
First, the similarities do not necessitate equality. A 3x5 card has similarities to a square (90 degree angles, parallel sides, etc), but does not mean it is equal to a square.
Second, the argument will unravel if the conclusion is proven false by some other authority. The authority in this case could be historians, non-christian historians at that. Are there any non-christian historians writing in and around the supposed time of Christ (or writing about His time) mentioning Him as existing? Yes. These include Josephus, Pliny the Younger, and more.
My reply:
“There are some Historians (Pliny the Younger, Josephus, etc) outside of the Bible who wrote about Jesus.”
His response:
“right. but what about the undeniable similarities between Jesus and other mythical beings, ie Horus or Mithra?”
So, he agrees that Jesus is a real person. However, he goes on to argue for the similarities between Jesus and mythological beings. So, let’s take an honest look at this:
He writes:
“Horus was born to a virgin, walked on water, performed miracles, crucified, rose from the dead. Familiar, hey? Explain?”
After a quick search on Google, I have found the following:
1. There is some debate, even among atheists, in regards to Horus’ virgin birth, his walking on water, crucifixion, and resurrection.
2. Many, including atheists agree that Horus performed miracles, but they were different in scope and nature. Let me add that even in the Bible, Jesus is not the only one to perform miracles. The Egyptian Magicians did, the disciples did, etc.
Yet, my reply was simply this:
“I agree there are some similarities between Jesus and mythical beings.”
“You also agreed that non-Christian historians wrote about Jesus, showing he existed. #atheism”
In closing, let me offer an argument of my own:
Historians have proven that Jesus existed.
Historians even prove some of the claims of the Bible about Jesus.
So, do you therefore conclude that all the claims of the Bible about Jesus are true? And thus you must believe or not believe?
Or do you conclude that the entire Bible is not true, and therefore you don’t have to believe?
The choice is yours.
Hey Bill,
ReplyDeleteA few things to note.
1. The elements of the Mithra story that parallel Christ come WELL AFTER the Gospels began to spread. The problem with the supposed parallels between Jesus and pre-Christian persons is that the stories providing the parallels came AFTER Jesus. Note, not the the beings being referenced are made up after Jesus, but the similar story elements do not appear in historical datum until after the life of Christ. The earliest "resurrection" accounts we have data for on supposed pre-Jesus resurrections come in the second century A.D.
2. To parallel Horus to Jesus shows a complete and utter lack of understanding of both Jesus and Egyptian religion. Horus was not resurrected. He became Lord of the underworld. He was literally re-animated in the underworld. How is that the same as rising from the dead in the same body you died in? Further, the assertion that Horus parallels Jesus in this regard needs to be defended on additional grounds. First, it must be demonstrated that Egyptians held a concept of resurrection. If they didn't, then this assertion is invalid. Second, did this supposed resurrection occur in space-time history as Jesus's resurrection was? No! So, even if this were a resurrection (which it is not), how is it similar to a claim made in time-space history? Even radical, anti-Christian scholars such as Robert Price say this supposed parallel is ridiculous.
The claim of miracles…who cares? First, the parallels are not there. Second, if they were, the case for Jesus is not built on the veracity of the miracles but of the resurrection. This is a red-herring.
Additionally, it must be explained and demonstrated how first-century, undeniably staunchly monotheistic Jews would utilize stories from polytheistic religions to formulate a monotheistic religion based upon Jesus! The Jews despised the Egyptians and their religions for obvious reasons and they also despised Rome and its various religions for obvious reasons. All the claims and actions of Jesus must be seen through the lens of second temple Judaism. If they are claiming we should not do this then they must demonstrate why not. Going further, the rise of viewing Jesus against a pagan culture milieu as opposed to a Hebrew, monotheistic culture arose in Germany during a period of heavy anti-semitism claiming that Jews were wicked and had no culture. So, the very bedrock of this objection is grounded in scholastic racism. Further still, does the person raising this objection believe that the people formulating the Jesus story were a bunch of dumb, illiterate fisherman as most people who believe in the Jesus parallel theory do? If so, how does he explain dumb, illiterate fisherman using supposedly written parallels from Egyptian and Roman sources? The problem with this assertion is that on the one hand you must propose they are dumb and fooled by this parallel charade and then on the other that they were experts in various mystery religion elements, written in different languages and they used these concepts to create a Jesus myth. Not only that but they used concepts from religions and cultures who had no concept of resurrection.
ReplyDeleteFurther, depending upon the version of the myth Horus doesn't rise as lord of the underworld but instead Osiris rises as Horus (a different being all together).
Last, non-evangelical scholar Tryggve Mettinger (University of Lund), wrote a book assessing dying and rising god myths. It is called "The Riddle of Resurrection." I have it and have read it. Here is his summary (considered the best study available on the matter): "The resurrection of Jesus retains its unique character among the history of the world's religions." This is after he has listed the fact that no mythological being claimed a one-time, space-time history resurrection located in a specific location, asserted as historical fact open for investigation. Also, that no other resurrection comes after a vicarious death. Further, Mettinger says, "There is, as far as I am aware, no prima facie evidence that the death and resurrection of Jesus is a mythological construct drawing on the myths and rites of "rising and dying" gods in the surrounding world." They, dying and rising gods, a season related and cyclical.